Muramasa/Masamune Japanese swords
Posted in xn--kfs74mzzid01b.com edit by jane on January 9th, 2009
does anybody know or heard of Masamune and Muramasa?
Here's how Muramasa looks in Tenchu: Wreath of Heaven Game
http://www.tenchu.de/images/tenchu3/gallery/70b.jpg
Masamune is believed to have worked in Sagami Province during the last part of the Kamakura Era (1185-1332), and it is thought that he was trained by swordsmiths from Bizen and Yamashiro provinces, such as Kunitsuna and Kunimitsu.
The first famous swordsmith active in Kamakura, Sagami province was Shintogo Kunimitsu. It is claimed (in Kanchiinbon Meizukushi) that he was a grandson of a swordsmith of the Taima school in Yamato province. It is generally accepted that Kunimitsu had two pupils, Yukimitsu and Masamune. The earliest among Kunimitsu's works are those reliably dated to 1293 and the latest dated 1324. Judging from the dates of Kunimitsu's works, Masamune was active from the end of Kamakura (1185-1332) to the very early years of the Nanbokucho (1333-1391) period.
The Soshu School:
Masamune is credited with creating the Soshu tradition of swordmaking during his career. "Soshu" or Soshu Kitae as it is formally known, is a seven layer lamination technique used in making the blade. The heart of the blade is formed from softer, more malleable steel giving it exceptional flexibility. There is then a layer of slightly harder steel bonded to each side of the blades heart, giving it support. The last layers are a very hard steel bonded to the top, bottom, and both sides of the core forming the ha (cutting edge) mune (back edge) and shinogi-ji (blade flats). This form of laminar construction provided for a sword that could be sharpened to a razor edge due to the hardened steed used for the ha, but was extremely resilient to battle damage due to its softer more flexible core. Masamune's adopted son, Sadamune succeeded him as master of the Soshu tradition.
In addition, legend has it that there were "10 Disciples of Masamune," or ten swordsmiths that continued working in Masamune's Soshu tradition of sword making, and that several already well-known swordsmiths also came to study with Masamune. The Masamune Jittetsu, as these smiths were called, worked in their own tradition as well as studying the techniques of Masamune.
Regardless of whether or not this is a historical fact, the swordsmiths working at the end of the Kamakura to the Nanbokucho periods produced works with the surface texture featuring nie, a distinguishing feature of the Masamune style. Nie are areas of bright crystalline structure in the hamon (temper-line) or ji (the blade surface between the ridgeline of the blade and the hamon), resulting from the interaction of the steel during the quenching process. Masamune's style is often referred to as "the beauty of nie," putting his blades in distinct contrast with Bizen blades.
Masamune's school of swordmaking is also often characterized by the soft, flowing hamon visible on his blades. A proper polish is required for the activities in the hamon to be well visualized. (An active hamon is normally the mark of a better quality blade.)
Documented Swords:
Masamune created many superb swords, and all of his surviving blades are considered national treasures in Japan. Seeing his signature on a sword is extremely rare, and there are just a few swords authenticated as his work. This body of work includes a few unsigned swords attributed to him. Their splendid craftsmanship has led to the high praise of Masamune as a master swordsmith. "Fudo Masamune," "Kyogoku Masamune," and "Daikoku Masamune" are accepted examples of his genuine works.
Masamune's works are the most frequently cited among the swords listed in the Kyoho Meibutsu Cho, a catalogue of "excellent swords" in the collections of daimyos edited during the Kyoho era (1716-1736) by Hon-ami.
Today, the name Masamune has become synonymous with "an excellent sword".
information and references used for this post inculde works by Jinsoo Kim (Nihon-to Books) and The Japanese sword guide, found at http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
-edited to correct spelling-
Muramasa's earliest known work dates to 1501.
The Masamune most people refer to (there were three smiths who signed their work Masamune at various periods), worked mainly in the middle 1300's.
The two could not have known each other.
There is an idea that because of the prohibitions by the Tokugawa (we are talking much later after both men were deat and gone) against Muramasa's blades - considereing them bad luck - the MURA character was cut off the tang and MUNE inscribed. Thus MuraMasa became Masamune, and thus the officials couldn't get upset. This might be the source of the confusion in thinking the two are somehow connected.
Just as an aside, just because something is signed with a name doesn't mean it was made by that smith. It was not uncommon for Japanese smiths for a long time to sign thier master's name, change their name, flat out try to swindle somebody with a fake/famous name, or just not sign it at all. This makes a huge headache out of tracing pedigree.
Masamune was an old swordsmith master whose apprentice Muramasa was gaining fame each day because of the perfection of his craftsmanship and the seemingly inherint ability of his blades to deliver clean kills with every stroke.
Upon the day of his death a noble lord asked Muramasa how he came to deliver such fine blades. Muramasa said "when I complete a blade I dip it into a stream blade first and hold it until a floating leaf comes in contact with the blade. If the leaf is sliced cleanly in two then I knew it as ready."
The noble lord was impressed greatly and started to shower praise upon Muramasa when Muramasa stopped him.
Muramasa then said "my blades were fine but not as fine as my masters. I have never made a single blade that compared to Masamune's." The noble lord asked how this could be and Muramasa responded "when my master placed his blade in the stream he also waited for a leaf to float towards it. But the leaf floating directly towards the edge of my masters blades always miraculously went around the blade missing it completely. You see... my masters blades had the ablilty to protect life and preserve the order of things. Mine could only kill."
Anyways it was something like that... I always remembered that story even now... twenty-five years later. Fact or fiction Muramasa and Masamune are men not to be forgotten.
That's my 2cents... anyways
What made his swords Unique, besides the artwork on the sowrds crafted, were that they were tempered in a way that made them Extreemly sharp but not brittle at all and when they were held they was almost weightless.
Thanks for the nice link :)
Just a few thoughts; Basically you have it right. We should be careful about what brittle means though. Any super-hard, sharp edge is going to be brittle. Part of Masamune's artistry was the brillance (shine) he was able to get on his swords. This was done by tempering the blade at very high temps. However, if you heat a blade up, stress builds up in the metal that causes it to become brittle (the entire sword, not just the edge). Masamune was able to develop steps in his manufacturing process that would relieve the stresses and give a stronger sword with a more brilliant shine to it than other smiths of his day. They were lighter probably because many of his surviving blades have a distinct taper (blade gets narrower) the length of the blade (so I have read). Weightless is a bit much.
However, no super-hardened, sharp edge can be made less brittle. The edge is usually the hardest part of the sword (different temperings (hardness for the edge and back give it strengh). It needs to be so to be sharp for a long period of time. You are correct when you say Masamune's swords were not brittle (as in the entire sword). Otherwise he would not be a good swordsmith. But I too was correct in saying a super-sharp sword of the kind we hear of in legends (cutting leaves drifting down streams / cutting silk scarves falling through the air) would not be able to last in battle.
Were Masamune's swords sharp? Sure. It is safe to assume they were. Were they sharper than what most other smiths could make? I'll even give you that one too. But we have to give Masamune more credit as a smith in that he would probably not go around making his blade with edges so brittle they would chip out at the slightest provocation. I don't know if they were ever used in battle, but if they were as highly prized then as now, why risk damaging one?
Just for fun, say the great art museums of the world had a paintball game (since paintball was mentioned on another thread). Each director of each museum could choose one painting to act as a shield, but they could also wack at other directors with it if they felt like it. Chances are really good in the hurrly-burrly paintings will get splattered, torn, or in some way damaged or destroyed. The directors want to choose a painting that shows off a little, but should they be running around bashing people with their Van Gogh and Monet? Why not choose something less rare, but still impressive (say an Ansel Adams)? If you are a high-ranking general or shogun, I imagine the same would go for your swords.
Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.
And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?
your right and I didn't quite clearify that in my last statment. But I am aware that the Japanese swords were used for mostly quick kills. perhaps that is why the Naginata was use for war times.
The 3 Musketeers on the other hand, I'd reckon were fiction. They didnt even use muskets, did they?
I wouldn't for sure, but I'm sure they were using guns by then anyway and the musketeers was probably a name given to them from the king. As for three of them, maybe they were three friends who stumble apon a plot and got the whole group to help the king.
It is really quite simply to create a very sharp sword. You really couldn't use it for anything but cutting strips of paper to impress the ladies as the edge would be too brittle to take any battle punishment. I think what people get really excited about with Masamune is the looks and the talent he had in his refined smithing process (and all the legend stuff).
"wow, so it is true, so it is also tru that the, correct me if I'm wrong, blacksmiths guild in Japan, did wipe out there recognition for making high quality swords due to the fact that those inccidents happeb in the Tokugawa family? So general, based on what the book described not many people would know to much about there craftsmenship there after."
I don't get this. Could you please reword it so I know exactly what you are after here? Thanks :)
Just because it is worth repeating, let's not forget that Japanese swords were nothing more than hunks of iron shaped in various ways. They had no special powers, were no better than the hand that held them, and were no better nor worse that swords made in Europe etc. Sorry for the soap-boxing, but Japanese swords often suffer from grave misconceptions.
No, the Tokugawas did consider blades made by Muramasa unlucky and the events similar to ones you mentioned did in fact happen. Tokugawa's grandfather was killed by a sword Muramasa made (though not with that goal in mind), his father was attacked by a drunk with a short sword made by Muramasa and Tokugawa cut his hand, not his arm, with one by accident. I have never heard of Tokugawa's first born decapitated, but if a sword by Muramasa was used, I think it would be out of respect for his high position (when you commit ritual suicide you have a second person to cut of your head after you cut your belly. This is a position of great responsibiity and a terrible dishonor if you botch the beheading. It seems naturally to me a blade that would be really good at cutting would be selected. Muramasa were said to be some of the best - a logical choice for the situation).
What I was trying to say is that somehow then extending some kind of curse to all blades made by Muramasa, or that somehow this curse was brought about by a severed hand in a quenching tank, etc. similar stories surrounding the samurai, Japanese swords and history should be approached with grave caution.
For example let's look at the Muramasa - Tokugawa thing. Muramasa's swords were very good at cutting, so it has been said. Samurai would have kept them around. Let's face it, a great sword doesn't come around everyday. Thus, you have the elite of the elite carrying around these weapons because they are rare and marks of great status. Is it that surprising that when the elite fight other elite, the rare class of weapons they use will naturally do the killing?
Only one death and two woundings (one wound being self inflicted) in the Tokugawa family over a period of three generations (some 60 years with 20 years to a generation) were caused by Muramasa's baldes. It wasn't as if around every corner was an assassin with a careful picked Muramasa blade at the ready. Muramasa did not make blades in some dark workshop in league with the devil chucking "heh, heh, heh...this one will be the end of the Tokugawas..." Muramasa would have been dead by the time the Tokugawas were in any position to restrict his swords. Let's not let the eccentric concerns of an absolute ruler or two impact too much on our interpretations of history.
You know what they say, live by the sword, die by the sword. If all the men in my family were all carpenters, and three of the most important had suffered some injury on a Craftsman saw of some sort, I think it would be natural for my family would develop an suspicion of the brand, wouldn't you? If we happened to be all powerful despots to boot, I also think we would ban or restrict the sale of Craftsman tools.
Or think of it like this - instead of swords, modern day samurai would kill each other with cars. Bently make some of the best looking, best working cars on the road, something any samurai would die to be seen in. Now a few Bently owning samurai hate the Tokugawas and a chance to kill a Tokugawa comes along. Our Bently owning samurai takes the chance, just like a Muramasa owning samurai would in feudal Japan. So now the Tokugawas are jumpy about any Bently they see out on the road and for a little peace of mind impose restrictions on who can own and drive Bentlys. Same thing for Muramasa's swords.
But coincidence and logic are pretty boring. A story about a curse and evil Muramasa blades longing for the taste of blood is much more interesting. :)
And there is nothing wrong with that as long as it can be kept in perspective.
That was what I was trying to say :bow:
Remember, based on fact and being a fact are not the same.
It is very easy to apply fantastic stories to famous people in history. All groups and cultures do it. Lets face it, we love a good story. It gives a bit of color to the past and lets the imagination run a little wild. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem, and much of Japanese history suffers from this, is when the stories beging to take on the appearence of fact. Just because it was in a book doesn't make it real - I know I am preaching to the chior here - history is a very malleable object as governments, story tellers, the media and even academia have shown again and again.
Curses, legends, stories are just what they appear. Lets leave them that way. :bow:
I think the guy lives and is based in a city somewhere southwest of Tokyo, i think it's Kanagawa, or some city beginning with K anyway. :P
If the program is on again i'll write it down and post it up.
Masamune was an old swordsmith master whose apprentice Muramasa was gaining fame each day because of the perfection of his craftsmanship and the seemingly inherint ability of his blades to deliver clean kills with every stroke.
Upon the day of his death a noble lord asked Muramasa how he came to deliver such fine blades. Muramasa said "when I complete a blade I dip it into a stream blade first and hold it until a floating leaf comes in contact with the blade. If the leaf is sliced cleanly in two then I knew it as ready."
The noble lord was impressed greatly and started to shower praise upon Muramasa when Muramasa stopped him.
Muramasa then said "my blades were fine but not as fine as my masters. I have never made a single blade that compared to Masamune's." The noble lord asked how this could be and Muramasa responded "when my master placed his blade in the stream he also waited for a leaf to float towards it. But the leaf floating directly towards the edge of my masters blades always miraculously went around the blade missing it completely. You see... my masters blades had the ablilty to protect life and preserve the order of things. Mine could only kill."
Anyways it was something like that... I always remembered that story even now... twenty-five years later. Fact or fiction Muramasa and Masamune are men not to be forgotten.
That's my 2cents... anyways
that is a great story, especially since it has roots in fact. im sure it is one i will remember as well, thank you.
thanks again shooter
'T'is my plesure, newbee. I hope you find your blades.
I am told that the word for "sword" in some languages is the same as the word for "truth." I hope you find the truth of your life.
Gloria virtutis umbra
but thanks for the heads up shooter.
btw do u like ur paul chen swords. are they pretty good???
and what about last legend swords are they good too?? :cool: :-)
They are indeed of high quality. Master Chen makes excellent edged weapons of various quality, but the folded steel weapons are as good as any found outside Japan. His forge is located in the PRC. He--as I stated before--uses the maru-gitae method of sword craft that is designed to mass produce weapons of uniform quality for worthy vassels. It is not the method one would use to produce the very highest quality swords when price is not an issue. Swords such as those of makuri-gitae style, are priceless works of art that are declared national treasures by the Japanese and are unavailable at any amount of money.
I am very proud of my daisho. My Tiger katana is in fact the first that was sold in the USA and the same one that is displayed at the Sword Armory website. Go to http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1204gt.htm to view my sword and the prices on the set of Tiger weapons.
It holds a fine, sharp edge, but I must admit the I have yet to kill anyone with it in combat, so it has not been abused at all. The true mark of a Japanese sword is that it is resilient in combat. Short of that, I can vouch for them.
The workmanship is first rate and done totally by hand (no machining goes into any of his folded-steel swords). That is why they are so damned expensive.
I hope that helps.
PS: Last-Legend weapons have sterling reputation. I cannot say more since I own none of them.
Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.
And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?
There are lots of cheap Chinese and other made blades. However, quality can varry widely. If you are looking for something more than a display sword, be thinking around 600 USD or more.
Lastly, swords are not toys. If you want to see what happens with cheap cr*p, or when you do stupid things with weapons - visit this link.
http://www.933flz.com/audio/Knives.mpeg
OUCH!
Swordsmiths are masters in their art; to tell them what to do, would be like telling the Pope how to pray.
For instance, would you ask a prayer from the Pope, but request it done via a Pagan ritual?
My point is when you are blessed with the presence of a master blacksmith, dont expect to demand things. Not that you would, but if you want your own personal styled blade, become a smith yourself.
When you are getting a sword from these types of masters, you are getting generations of history, tradition, art. You get what they give, in short.
Kneppy: I'm pretty certain he doesnt have a site. I mean, this field of art isnt there as a commercial business.
I am sorry but i have to disagree. The Katana was far supoerior to the "crusader blades" or european edged weapons in their primary use and construction. Folded steel is far stronger and resilient than pressed or hammered steel. The katana was designed as both offensive and defensive weapon. I have used both types of swords and attempting to block with the side of a western blade and it'll bent right over on you, Try the same with the Japanese Katana and you can rest assured you won't have to discard your sword. I'm no expert on western edged weapons or Japanese edged weapons, but i did study (against my own will) the crusades and the english civil war, but didn't western swords need a dagger or something to block and parry with? A Japanese blade needed no such backup weapon it's prety fearsome on it's own. Also as for the cutting aspect Japanese swords were/are superrior. I belive Stephen Turnbull the Japanese historian commisioned a study into this too.
Curved weapns are far more efficient at this job than straight edged weapons, especially for cavalary. Mainly due to curves moving more efficiently in an arc than a straight line. Imagine charging someone with your nice spanish steel blade and smacking the guy (who is also wearing a helmet) square in the face and wheeling round to find.....he's still standing. Fair enough if the sword was extremely sharp you may have cut or even damaged the helmet. Try the same on the same guy with a Katana and you can guarantee the guy's head'll split like a melon. I have quite a bit of Tameshigiri experience and i have tried this with both my own katana ( the tiger by Paul Chen ), and with the Hanwei forge western blades. Whilst they are in no way near the quality of the older blades (This is in no way to disrespect Mr Chen, his blades are excellent), This does give a real sense of what you're up against.
With regards to the skill of the weilder, yes i will agree with you there, if the swordsman using the blade is a complete amateur then he will get cut to pieces regardless of how good his sword is.
On bamboo the Straight weapons would get lodged and would require alot of brute strenght to remove, the Katana does not, if it gets lodged a slight tug and a twist of the torso will free the Katana quite easily.
Yes i will admit i do have a bias towards the Japanese weapons but in a stabbing role the two weapons are just about equal. This is just my two cents.:note: :bow:
I'm having one created from him to start a new family tradition, since most of my original traditions died out with the elders in my bloodline.
wow thats awsome, can you design a sword and have him craft it. and how much does he charge for crafting these swords?
thanks again shooter
Thanks
http://www.tokyopop.com/dbdocuments/3/9/3693.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm (article)
Also it also talks about all the things we have been going into with regards to historical periods. The rest of the site goes to a group that work a lot with historical Western martial arts and is worth a look.
http://www.thearma.org/ (homepage)
http://artsword.esmartweb.com/
Thanks
does anybody know or heard of Masamune and Muramasa?
I knew i'd heard this before so i checked my books. As the story goes Muramasa-san was visited by a fellow smith, when he turned his back to check a blade the visitor dipped his hand into the quenching trough. Muramasa-san saw this and sliced the man's hand off with the blade he was inspecting. Apparently he never drained the trough to remove the blood so from then on his blades were deemed to be possessed with vampiritic demons. :giggle:
As for the test cutting or "Tameshigiri" this practice was often carried out using corpses however, it was also very popular amongst certain Daimyo to use criminals or prisoners for the practice too. Oda Nobunaga was apparently very fond of literally using "live" targets.
I own the complete daisho of the Tiger blades (katana, wakizashis, and tanto), but it was an investment of over two thousand bucks five years ago when I made the purchase. It costs much more to procure the same blades today.
Of course you can get a set of swords that are blunt, of cheap steel, and with phoney temper lines (hamon), and only fit for display at almost any pawn shop. The price will be a couple hundred bucks.
I'm having one created from him to start a new family tradition, since most of my original traditions died out with the elders in my bloodline.
Musketeers were real. They were basically the first organized rifle infrantry men.
The 3 Musketeers on the other hand, I'd reckon were fiction. They didnt even use muskets, did they?
Has someone picked it up again? I'd be interested in that story...
well i have to agree but I read a book about samurai's and it also mentioned that he had an apprentice named I believe shiro Muramasa. He was trained in masamune's style but developed swords that were deamed cursed. So if Masamune died with his secrets maybe Muramasa has desendents that still crafts swords since the styles are some what close. Plus Muramasa name was banished from the guild wich could allow him and his desendents continue the art without wide regonition.
But then thats my speculation.....
Here's how Muramasa looks in Tenchu: Wreath of Heaven Game
http://www.tenchu.de/images/tenchu3/gallery/70b.jpg
yes just resently I noticed to, even in final fantasy tactics there is a sword call murasama, but rather the two names are related that is some thing I will have to check out. But so far i have a book called Secret of the Samurai and it actually mentions Senzo Muramasa as the apprentice of Masamune. And yes he did make good swords but apparently they were probably so thin and sharp that they easily cut through things and broke easily. On the other hand Masamune supposedly commended him for the craftmenship anyway.
That what I would like.... being to ask him to craft a sword that is similar to what I designed but in his style. For instance Would like a two pairs wakizashi swords craft as one with a dragon ornamented hilt and the other with a tiger ornamented hilt. The blade would definitly be his tempered work. That what I mean.
What do you think?
but thanks for the heads up shooter.
btw do u like ur paul chen swords. are they pretty good???
and what about last legend swords are they good too?? :cool: :-)
I also have Master Paul Chen's blades. I bought the complete daisho including the tanto. While this purchase was perhaps the most questionable acquisition on which I have ever spent good money, I love them as works of art. They are more akin to a Maxfield Parrish paintning than weapons like my sidearms and rifles. I take them from the display stand each month to dust them, oil the blades, and talc them with the polishing ball because it thrills me just to have them.
It is, however, my understanding that these edged weapons were all created by the maru-gitae method of forging, using special clay to coat the blades (except for an eighth-inch of the cutting edge) before quenching them. This allowed the blade to cool more slowly, making the steel softer and more supple--except for the actual edge, which cooled quickly, into a very, very, hard steel, able to hold sharpness under abuse.
This method is used to mass-produce swords. The great works of Japanese sword crafting would likely be made by other methods, the makuri-gitae method being one I would select if I was a wealthy daimyo looking for the finest of swords.
IIRC, the curve of Japanese single-edged blades is formed by the cooling, with the denser metal contracting at a differenet rate than the forward edge portion. The style of sword play made use of the curve, enabling samurai to s-l-i-c-e through their victims with a pulling strike, rather than hack through with massive force.
It was my understanding that the Nordic and Sweedish sword makers of about the same period (10th through 13th Centuries) made weapons of equal quality as far as the steel used in the manufacture. It was in subtlety of design where the Japanese sword smiths had their advantage. The undeniable advantage in beauty of simplicity was an added advantage.
Am I misinformed?
PS: is it true that Japanese sword smiths used only water to quench their blades, not oils like Western craftsmen?
What distinguishes japan's swords from most is the fact that they are made in a style resembeling a damascues blade. A piece of very strong metal is brought and is melted when it has completly melted it is then straightened into a long bar and than pounded on it self to make it bend into layers. from there it is pounded again to make it into three layers and the process goes on as much as the sword maker wants it to be. The thickest blades are usally made to 2 to the power of 3 or was it to the power of five sorry cant really remeber the number exactly but it is between these powers. This made the sword very resistent to breaking while making it very functional yet
We do have an image of western swords being big and heavy. Some where, but they were designed for a purpose and needed to be heavy. We should keep in mind the variety and constant development of armor. If a sword was made to be heavy, there was a very good reason. "European" does not equal "heavy" all the time. If you are talking about swords designed to be used with one hand (or two with a longer grip) they were often as light or lighter than Japanese blades. It would be silly to make a sword that puts you at a disadvantage. Even the biggest swords tend to top out at about 5 lbs - so I have been told by people who practice those styles of combet - and most single handed blades stop at around 2 to 2.5 lbs (about the same as a katana).
THen we may have to look at the fact that certain blades were possibly crafted for a one time use when the intent of killing a high ranking officer was in the works......
I hadn't heard that before :) I would be interested in learning more. Do you have a source I could go to Tetsunihon?
as u may know they did test their swords on dead bodies to see how well they cut them in half.
Yes, there are some references to this type of cutting test. However, they seemed to be rare. Of the records that do show tests on criminals (they would cut other things too) they are very detailed and often inscribed on the tang (part of the sword under the grip). It is safe to say that not a lot of swords went through this process because the vasy majority of antique swords do not have such records. The practice of cutting people for testing was only popular in the Edo period (1603-1868). This is only a very small period in the history of the Japanese sword so we shouldn't ascribe this practice to all samurai from all time periods
Plus, why take the chance in ruining a good blade? Bone can catch a blade or chip and edge, and I have heard stories that reed mats can bend a blade if you don't swing right (Japanese blades are not known for flexibility). I think cutting tests were more like crash tests for cars - a way to check to see if you have the right idea for your product.
The famous Masamune and Muramasa have no physical connection to each other. Several smiths (on the order of 30) were named Muramasa or Masamune over the years - only two were ever famous. Senzo is not the Muramasa who has all this hype about his swords being cursed. This is probably because Senzo's swords were basically worthless, if what tetsunihon says is true (about the brittleness). Samurai, until about the Tokugawa shogunate (1603 to 1868) put a much greater value on functional than decorative weapons.
I have some information for you regarding Muramasa.
The sword of Muramasa is considered evil among family of Tokugawa, who ruled Japan during Edo period. According to the history, it was said that first general (seii taishogun) Ieyasu Tokugawa's father was assacinated by the Muramasa sword. Also Ieyasu's eldest son, Nobuyasu, killed himself by doing hara-kiri with the Muramasa Sword. Therefore, the Tokugawa family extremely detested Murasame Sword believeing it would bring bad fortune to them and the idea became universal through the country.
This is how much I know about it right now. If I happen to get more information on this, I will post them again here for you.
Hope it will answer some of your questions.
ofcourse it'll be hard to recreate them.. it'd be pretty damn hard to recreate the excalibur the way the legend tells it too...
They were probably just pretty damn good swords...
Legends tend to be MUCH better than the original..
but as I always say..
That's just my 2 Sen
on teh topic of the musketeers, the fact that they don't use muskets is irrelevant.. when i was in the army (swedish), the company next to me was called the cavalry, but i can assure you they didn't ride horses... It's just a name they've kept since a hundred years ago when they DID....
maybe the musketeers started out as a musket regement and moved on to be the queens personal bodyguard (as they were)
Has someone picked it up again? I'd be interested in that story...
i have found several sites that say there swords are and made folded steel but im am reluctant to make a purchase. swords from guys like Paul Chen and last legend look nice but are they pretty good quality swords. i have no idea so some help would be greatly apreciated.
would someone point me in the right direction???
if u have any ideas or info that would help me find one feel free to private message me. thanks every one.
that was an intersting article. In a way I had a feeling that Japanese swords would break... even the Samurai book I read said they break eventualy. But I guess in order to get that fine cutting, they wanted a thinner sword. Also the sword was light enough to folow through with defensive and offensive sweeping motions without hindering thing sword bearer with extra weight like the Medievil swords.
THen we may have to look at the fact that certain blades were possibly crafted for a one time use when the intent of killing a high ranking officer was in the works......as u may know they did test their swords on dead bodies to see how well they cut them in half.
well despite the fact that they are fragile I still prefer a thinner and lighter sword.... I would just before mindfull of what I use it on. :relief:
well nice article though.... :spray:
A naginata will kill you just as fast as a sword ;)
Naginata (a type of halberd) were used like many long weapons - keeping the enemy away from you. The also were, much, much, much (etc....) better at busting through armor than a sword.
Swords in all cultures were weapons of last resort on a battlefield. Kind of like a military sidearm today. Sure, you could kill someone with a sword, but there were much better and less risky ways of going about it.
We shouldn't ascribe to the samurai some kind of superhuman ethical code when it came to battle - like I mentioned somewhere on the thread earlier. Samurai suffer from so many misconceptions and romatic notions. A few Japanese authors get sentimental in the 1700's and suddenly every samurai ever born was a steeled, cool eyed warrior. Not so. Western media gets ahold of this and suddenly it becomes the truth... Samurai would just as soon resort to deception and guile to win. Many a samurai was cut down by other samurai laying in wait. Even Musashi, seeming everyone's favorite samurai, won several duels using surprise as a weapon.
Today I ordered my very first sword in my collection, it is made by the verified and authentic 24th Generation masamune ancestor. My sword will take 2 years to make due to the wait list. I am their first foreigner ( American born in Hawaii ) to have ever entered their shop for a sword. The sword will take 2 months to make but a total of 2 - 3 years due to the wait list ahead of me. Please bare with me I am a noob in the art of fine Japanese swords but not a noob in regards to collecting rare items from all over the world.
I ordered a Katana, with inscribed Kanji and it is the blade only for 1,600,000yen or 15,000 U.S dollars. Masamune the 24th did not speak any English and my Japanese is broken but his 2 apprentices spoke English very well and told me there are only 47 masamune swords ever made and almost all of them are in museums as national treasure. Masamune the 24th has one hidden somewhere and it is supposedly the finest sword masamune has ever ever made passed from son to son for 24 generations. Of course I asked how much, the answer was there is no price because its priceless and his family's air loom. I later found out that one of the apprentices was his son and still called him Master. I am very excited to get my sword, they even tried hard to turn me away but after hearing he is the ancestor and the secret diluted yet still very in tact would be a part of making this sword I could not resist. I am very excited. I am looking for some sort of education about masamune can anyone help me?
Thank you,
Christopher
Mandylion wrote :
As armor and fighting styles developed in Europe, weapons and their uses changed too. The Japanese seemed to find something they liked and stuck with it, preferring variations on a theme.
It's quite amazing to see that Japanese "fashion" has evolved so little through the centuries, especially from Heian times (9th c.) to late Edo period (late 19th c.). Both male and female kimono have hardly evolved, and apparently so have weapons, except maybe for an "upgrade" around sengoku-jidai (late 16th c.), possibly related to the first contact with Europeans and firearms. Japanese still wear kimonos on some occasions (or often, for some older ladies), but no Westerner would wear 13th c. crimson velvet robes and hats, nor Renaissance HenryVIII-like puffed shoulders and thighs with knee-high stockings, nor 17th c. long curly brown wigs with long blue or red jackets and a ruff, nor the shorter 18th c. white wigs and triangular hats, with a waistcoat, jacket and white tights, nor the early 19th c. high-collar black suits with white shirts and a huge white necktie... I could continue like that for ages. Actually, fashion has changed noticeably almost every decade since the 18th c. in Europe. Without Westernisation, Japanese would certainly be wearing the same kind of clothes as 1000 years ago now.
Zero-sen has made the mistake of seeing history as unevolutive, because he based himself to much on Japan. 11-12th century crusaders have little to do with 15-16th century knights or conquistadors, and even less with 17th century musketeers, 18th and 19th c. infantry and cavalry regiments. Guns (from muskets & canons to rifles and artillery) have been used in Western countries from the late 15th century, i.e. 100 years before the Tokugawa Shogunate. But the samurai battle style in Japan didn't change until Meiji, about 400 years later than Europe. Masamune and the like lived when Europe has already colonised America and people like Cortes and Pizarro had defeated army of millions of Aztecs and Quechuas (=>Inca), what Japanese samurai with their best katanas would never been able to do (even after seeing the Last Samurai :D ).
However, swords were still in use during the Edo period the West. Think of Napoleonian Hussards and Dragoons or, 60 years later, US Civil War Cavalry. Eventhough I am no expert in blades, their curved sabers were probably as good as the katanas of the time.
No pun intended right?
:)
Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.
And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?
No I didn't hear about the sword fighter La Maupin but I would like to know if Zorro or the Musketeers were really real.
It also mentioned that Masamune, Muramasa's teacher, tempered swords of pure steel in a way to be considered a master, I wonder if its possible to discover his secrets if Masamune's craftsmenship created extremly sharp swords.
Usually you can tell right off if the smith will make custom pieces. Plus you will probably find him/her by word of mouth.
Winter is right though - Japanese smiths usually don't do custom work after they get to a particular level. There are plenty of American and European ones who will - and the only difference you will get in most cases is cost and pedigree.
The famous Masamune and Muramasa have no physical connection to each other. Several smiths (on the order of 30) were named Muramasa or Masamune over the years - only two were ever famous. Senzo is not the Muramasa who has all this hype about his swords being cursed. This is probably because Senzo's swords were basically worthless, if what tetsunihon says is true (about the brittleness). Samurai, until about the Tokugawa shogunate (1603 to 1868) put a much greater value on functional than decorative weapons.
I well aware of it, but that novel based on a true story of an English man who came to Japan on Duth ship in 1600 right before Tokugawa Iyeyasu seized the power of the Shogun and was favored by Tokugawa. The information in that book is historicaly correct only that Tokugawa is called Toronaga, his eldest son called Oda and Muramasa is called Murasama. Other then that, information is correct and James Clevel consulted different people in Europe and Asia before writing that novel, even the main rival of Toronaga for the Shogun's power is Ishido, the one who was defeated by Tokugawa at Sekigahara on October or November of 1600. I think it's more than just a coincidence and by the way, the story of an "evil sword" is also used in the book and mentions all of the things happened with it and Tokugawa family and some more. It's says that Toronaga's grandfather had been assossinated by Murasama, then Murasama sword nearly cuted off Toronaga's right arm and bled him to death when he was a child from out of nowhere, also that sword decapitated his first born chiled, the one who commited suicide as I belive. As I perceve it, that is the same story as the story of a real historical figure, only different names or spelling were used for the novel, or there might had been some changes in spelling made since the novel was writen. :p
Originally posted by Zero-sen
:The Katana was far supoerior to the "crusader blades" or european edged weapons in their primary use and construction. Folded steel is far stronger and resilient than pressed or hammered steel.
Folded steel can be stronger, but Europeans used a variety of construction methods which also yeilded very stong, flexible blades too (including folding). Also, both the ages of the knight and samurai spanned hundreds of years. Unless we limit our conversation to a specific time period, doing the euro vs. jpn thing is like the apples and oranges thing. For example, Vikings could fold and weld in patterns that could be more complex than a Japanese sword. Perhaps the swords of the Crusades were sub-par (I'm not familiar with that period) in the metallurgical sense.
Folding steel does not by itself make a strong blade. Folding helps to even out the carbon distribution in the metal and work out the impurities of a low grade material (Japanese smiths used iron sand for a period before imports from abroad became available) and make a stronger blade that way. Folding steel of already high quality won't make it much stronger, and in fact introduces the chance for messing it up and making it weaker. If you have something of high quality already, you will get a strong blade without fancy folding, cores of soft steel and springy outer skins.
Blade strength will come down to the skill of the smith and the materials at hand. Both cultures made plenty of ho-hum swords, folded and not.
Originally posted by Zero-sen
:The katana was designed as both offensive and defensive weapon. I have used both types of swords and attempting to block with the side of a western blade and it'll bent right over on you, Try the same with the Japanese Katana and you can rest assured you won't have to discard your sword.
What kind of sword were you using and what did you hit it with? If you smack a thin rapier (think three musketeers) on the flat with a kataka, darn right it might bend! Simple physics. Thick sword hits thinner sword on thinnest face - thin sword bends. If you tried the same thing on something like a longsword or a claymore you will get a different result. I have heard stories of well made katanas bending while cutting tatami because of a twisting of the blade on the part of the user. Steel is steel and all of it will bend under the right conditions. Folded or unfolded, Japanese or european really doesn't have much to do with it.
Eurpoean swords were used defensively and offensively as well, but they also had armour, shields, off-hand weapons to deal with or rely on as well(depending on the time period).
Originally posted by Zero-sen
:I'm no expert on western edged weapons or Japanese edged weapons, but didn't western swords need a dagger or something to block and parry with? A Japanese blade needed no such backup weapon it's prety fearsome on it's own.
Different strokes for different periods. The weapons you are thinking of are called off-hand weapons and were used for blocking and perhaps attack. These made an appearence mainly with the rapier (again think musketeers) and at fairly advanced stage of european weaponry (around the Renaissance I think? Books not handly...please correct me). Back when knights were still in plate armor and such, sword techniques usually called for the ability to use both hands (half-swording etc). With the rapier and main-gauche [sic?] combatants were lightly armored, if at all, and so could not count on a suit of armor to absorb or deflect blows.
As armor and fighting styles developed in Europe, weapons and their uses changed too. The Japanese seemed to find something they liked and stuck with it, preferring variations on a theme. This dymanics in European tactics does not denote inferiority, nor does the static nature of the Japanese sword say they had the best sword ever. Both places faced different situations and developed accordingly).
Originally posted by Zero-sen
:Also as for the cutting aspect Japanese swords were/are superrior. I belive Stephen Turnbull the Japanese historian commisioned a study into this too.
Curved weapns are far more efficient at this job than straight edged weapons, especially for cavalary. Mainly due to curves moving more efficiently in an arc than a straight line.
Yes the Japanese katana, or any curved weapon, work very well on horseback and your geometry is correct. Indeed on an unarmored target the Japanese blade will probably cut better. This is not to say European swords were not as sharp or couldn't deliver a nasty cut. Forensic archeology has pointed this out. I would choose to run my bare hand along neither a katana nor a long sword, that you very much :) There were also European blades designed to maximize the cut - broadsword, backswords, falchions etc. Plus, a sword does not have to be razor sharp to kill someone.
Originally posted by Zero-sen
:Imagine charging someone with your nice spanish steel blade and smacking the guy (who is also wearing a helmet) square in the face and wheeling round to find.....he's still standing. Fair enough if the sword was extremely sharp you may have cut or even damaged the helmet. Try the same on the same guy with a Katana and you can guarantee the guy's head'll split like a melon. I have quite a bit of Tameshigiri experience and i have tried this with both my own katana
Please don't be running at people with swords! :) All things being equal (sword weight etc) I think you could expect to finish up with one dented helmet and two damaged swords.
This is a bit of apples and oranges again and the time period issue. If your point is just about cutting power through armor, there is plenty on the Net about such stuff an I encourage you to browse the link I included at the top of this post. In short, swords of any culture did not do well against armor under battlefield conditions . I am aware of the controlled tests with a katana on a helmet. There were several flaws with this test, and it resulted only in cutting a few inches, hardly enough to kill a man who would probably be wearing padding and such under that. Add in the chaos and uncontrolled nature of battle and you are much more assured of a kill by going for a gap in a bit of armor than trying to cut through it. Thrust to the face would do just as well if you are keen on head injury (esp. with most open-faced Japanese helmets). Under the right conditions and with a blade designed to do so, aromor shearing results could probably be reproduced for any culture's weapons, not just the katana.
Lastly, a sharp sword is not going to "cut" through armor any better than a duller one. Getting through thick metal has much more to do with blade geometry, weight and momentum.
Thanks for the great post Zero-sen! I can see where you are coming from and from experience a lot of the east vs. west sword thing is just a matter of preference and brass tacks. It can be really hard to compare two such different martial traditions!
:bow:
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